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	<title>Comments on: A tale of menus</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?feed=rss2&#038;p=103" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103</link>
	<description>some stuff by Andreas Nilsson</description>
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		<title>By: Alex W.</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-179212</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-179212</guid>
		<description>Quote: “According to a blog post by Andreas Nilsson of the GNOME Art Team,... ... The team feels it will produce a “visually more attractive default and that it will result in a cleaner and more efficient interface.”

That&#039;s a pure bullshit, guys! I probably may understand some people don&#039;t like icons in menus and buttons, but hey, what&#039;s the matter, don&#039;t you see that almost 95% of users LIKE the icons? They are used to it and that&#039;s really cool to have nice coloured live menus instead of dumb, boring and dry text-based only ones.
Default setting MUST enable icons, as well as browser mode for Nautilus! That is what most users need.
Making them disabled by default is killing the Gnome. That has been a really stupid decision not only from my own perspective, but also from the perspective of all colleagues and the friends of mine!

Please, open your eyes, guys! People want sexy UI.
It should not necessarily be a &quot;festival of colours&quot; (some people like emotions, some people don&#039;t), but it must be a picture anyway - not a lonely text. That&#039;s for sure.

I bet you - reconsider! Long live the GNOME! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quote: “According to a blog post by Andreas Nilsson of the GNOME Art Team,&#8230; &#8230; The team feels it will produce a “visually more attractive default and that it will result in a cleaner and more efficient interface.”</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a pure bullshit, guys! I probably may understand some people don&#8217;t like icons in menus and buttons, but hey, what&#8217;s the matter, don&#8217;t you see that almost 95% of users LIKE the icons? They are used to it and that&#8217;s really cool to have nice coloured live menus instead of dumb, boring and dry text-based only ones.<br />
Default setting MUST enable icons, as well as browser mode for Nautilus! That is what most users need.<br />
Making them disabled by default is killing the Gnome. That has been a really stupid decision not only from my own perspective, but also from the perspective of all colleagues and the friends of mine!</p>
<p>Please, open your eyes, guys! People want sexy UI.<br />
It should not necessarily be a &#8220;festival of colours&#8221; (some people like emotions, some people don&#8217;t), but it must be a picture anyway &#8211; not a lonely text. That&#8217;s for sure.</p>
<p>I bet you &#8211; reconsider! Long live the GNOME! <img src='http://www.andreasn.se/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-179070</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-179070</guid>
		<description>Hmm, &quot;why&quot; did somewhat tell how i think about it. I agree with you &quot;why&quot; although your tone could be a little less aggressive.

I also think that gnome made just a bit to much strange new defaults and gnome certainly doesn&#039;t listen to user feedback. I even started (unintended) a flamewar about the spatial vs browser mode and it was more then obvious that browser mode is what most users want yet gnome persists on forcing spatial mode.. I know it can be changed!

Sad but true. A gnome fork that cleans up the current default setting mess (among things) would certainly get my support.

@Nilsson what was the motivation for accepting this new default? since it &quot;seems&quot; most users dislike it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, &#8220;why&#8221; did somewhat tell how i think about it. I agree with you &#8220;why&#8221; although your tone could be a little less aggressive.</p>
<p>I also think that gnome made just a bit to much strange new defaults and gnome certainly doesn&#8217;t listen to user feedback. I even started (unintended) a flamewar about the spatial vs browser mode and it was more then obvious that browser mode is what most users want yet gnome persists on forcing spatial mode.. I know it can be changed!</p>
<p>Sad but true. A gnome fork that cleans up the current default setting mess (among things) would certainly get my support.</p>
<p>@Nilsson what was the motivation for accepting this new default? since it &#8220;seems&#8221; most users dislike it.</p>
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		<title>By: Nilsson</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-179069</link>
		<dc:creator>Nilsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-179069</guid>
		<description>why: I&#039;m sorry we made you upset with the change and if you feel this is a sign of a greater illness in the project and you feel you can accomplish greater things yourself, I encourage you to fork. It is free software after all. Good luck with the project! (I&#039;m not sarcastic here, I mean it)

And next time, try to stay away from insults like telling me I have a rotten brain or try to imply that I have the mindset of a terrible regime. That kind of arguments seldom helps moving the discussion forward.
Hugs from Sweden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why: I&#8217;m sorry we made you upset with the change and if you feel this is a sign of a greater illness in the project and you feel you can accomplish greater things yourself, I encourage you to fork. It is free software after all. Good luck with the project! (I&#8217;m not sarcastic here, I mean it)</p>
<p>And next time, try to stay away from insults like telling me I have a rotten brain or try to imply that I have the mindset of a terrible regime. That kind of arguments seldom helps moving the discussion forward.<br />
Hugs from Sweden.</p>
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		<title>By: why</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-179068</link>
		<dc:creator>why</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-179068</guid>
		<description>Why oh why is this idiotic change made.. It makes no sense, does NOT make the menus more &quot;clean&quot; in any way. lets me pick my application slower since there is no icon representation anymore (system menu) it looks odd because other menu&#039;s do have icons only the system menu seems out of place now.

Foolish idiotic lame weak decision. I can perfectly understand torvalds for calling the gnome interface designed by *****, a few years ago. Gnome just doesn&#039;t learn from it&#039;s gigantic big ass mistakes and just keeps on making them. The kinds of things gnome people decide make me think they are mentally insane.

I vote for a gnome fork that reverts all idiotic brain tumors like this and spatial vs browser. I would even vote for kicking spatial out all together!

Do i have something against gnome? You bet i have! It was, for the last few years, the best desktop environment because there was nothing better. KDE WAS to unstable. Now with KDE 4.3.3 it all seems to work just fine so i urge people to let gnome rot and die fast and use KDE or make a gnome fork. And the next huge mistake that is about to happen is the gnome 3.0 interface.. so much time WASTED.

GNOME, You just don&#039;t get it! your usability SUCKS because there is none. The so called HIG document of gnome is equally worthless. Take an example of the Mac HIG. And don&#039;t COPY it but IMPROVE it. the icon part should not be copied but improved. But again that&#039;s probably to much to ask for mentally ill and rotten brains.

Why do i post this message on this blog?
Well, the blog owner &quot;Andreas Nilsson&quot; did fully agree with https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557469 and would have even gone a bit further:

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew: I agree to what you&#039;re saying, because we certainly need some sort of
guidance. Currently applications tend to have icons for everything in their
menus, except for the cases where the artist said &quot;no, I don&#039;t have time to
draw that&quot;. I still have some questions though.
Does save-as that use a hard drive + arrow count as object, or does that count
as action? (I guess the latter, just want clarification)
Do you mean file like in the Open Recent menu in GIMP, or something else?
I guess what I&#039;m asking for is examples.

Anyway, +1 from me
-----------------------------------------------------------------

And your later posts in that report also show you fully agree which makes you one of those rotten brains as well.

Normally i&#039;m hard in what i say but not as hard as in this message. I USED to be worried about the direction of gnome and USED to be willing to help gnome. Not anymore. Gnome is ill beyond recovery and can, in my opinion, only recover under a fork that has a DEMOCRACY instead of a MERITOCRACY. The gnome that i see now and the coming versions are dead for me. A gnome fork is the way to go for devs and while that is under development all the users should steer away from gnome as fast as possible and switch to KDE. Far more superior then Gnome anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why oh why is this idiotic change made.. It makes no sense, does NOT make the menus more &#8220;clean&#8221; in any way. lets me pick my application slower since there is no icon representation anymore (system menu) it looks odd because other menu&#8217;s do have icons only the system menu seems out of place now.</p>
<p>Foolish idiotic lame weak decision. I can perfectly understand torvalds for calling the gnome interface designed by *****, a few years ago. Gnome just doesn&#8217;t learn from it&#8217;s gigantic big ass mistakes and just keeps on making them. The kinds of things gnome people decide make me think they are mentally insane.</p>
<p>I vote for a gnome fork that reverts all idiotic brain tumors like this and spatial vs browser. I would even vote for kicking spatial out all together!</p>
<p>Do i have something against gnome? You bet i have! It was, for the last few years, the best desktop environment because there was nothing better. KDE WAS to unstable. Now with KDE 4.3.3 it all seems to work just fine so i urge people to let gnome rot and die fast and use KDE or make a gnome fork. And the next huge mistake that is about to happen is the gnome 3.0 interface.. so much time WASTED.</p>
<p>GNOME, You just don&#8217;t get it! your usability SUCKS because there is none. The so called HIG document of gnome is equally worthless. Take an example of the Mac HIG. And don&#8217;t COPY it but IMPROVE it. the icon part should not be copied but improved. But again that&#8217;s probably to much to ask for mentally ill and rotten brains.</p>
<p>Why do i post this message on this blog?<br />
Well, the blog owner &#8220;Andreas Nilsson&#8221; did fully agree with <a href="https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557469" rel="nofollow">https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557469</a> and would have even gone a bit further:</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
Matthew: I agree to what you&#8217;re saying, because we certainly need some sort of<br />
guidance. Currently applications tend to have icons for everything in their<br />
menus, except for the cases where the artist said &#8220;no, I don&#8217;t have time to<br />
draw that&#8221;. I still have some questions though.<br />
Does save-as that use a hard drive + arrow count as object, or does that count<br />
as action? (I guess the latter, just want clarification)<br />
Do you mean file like in the Open Recent menu in GIMP, or something else?<br />
I guess what I&#8217;m asking for is examples.</p>
<p>Anyway, +1 from me<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>And your later posts in that report also show you fully agree which makes you one of those rotten brains as well.</p>
<p>Normally i&#8217;m hard in what i say but not as hard as in this message. I USED to be worried about the direction of gnome and USED to be willing to help gnome. Not anymore. Gnome is ill beyond recovery and can, in my opinion, only recover under a fork that has a DEMOCRACY instead of a MERITOCRACY. The gnome that i see now and the coming versions are dead for me. A gnome fork is the way to go for devs and while that is under development all the users should steer away from gnome as fast as possible and switch to KDE. Far more superior then Gnome anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Gnome 2.26 to gnome 2.28 System menu icons disabled (icons not showing/disappeared) &#171; Walking in Light with Christ (Faith, Computing, Diary, Journal, whatever)</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-174685</link>
		<dc:creator>Gnome 2.26 to gnome 2.28 System menu icons disabled (icons not showing/disappeared) &#171; Walking in Light with Christ (Faith, Computing, Diary, Journal, whatever)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 20:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-174685</guid>
		<description>[...] Now your icons should appear back in the menus.More about this kind of issues can be red on  the followingblog.Cheers  END&#8212;&#8211; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Now your icons should appear back in the menus.More about this kind of issues can be red on  the followingblog.Cheers  END&#8212;&#8211; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Odie</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-167921</link>
		<dc:creator>Odie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-167921</guid>
		<description>How is an application &quot;dynamic&quot;?  It just sits there until you uninstall it.  Sounds like a pretty arbitrary collection of things to leave with icons, and arbitrary usually means &quot;wrong&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is an application &#8220;dynamic&#8221;?  It just sits there until you uninstall it.  Sounds like a pretty arbitrary collection of things to leave with icons, and arbitrary usually means &#8220;wrong&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: F Wolff</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-167177</link>
		<dc:creator>F Wolff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 09:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-167177</guid>
		<description>I think it it is an interesting idea to consider this. I am not sure about changing the default now, though. I somewhat share Patrick&#039;s view here. Apart from children and the elderly, we should consider people who have to use GNOME in a language they don&#039;t understand well. Yes, we should improve our localisation to cover more languages (trust me, I&#039;m working on it), but I believe that for some users, the icons will be much easier to recognise than the text itself, since it means little or nothing to some users who are not familiar with English or French in which they have to use the software.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it it is an interesting idea to consider this. I am not sure about changing the default now, though. I somewhat share Patrick&#8217;s view here. Apart from children and the elderly, we should consider people who have to use GNOME in a language they don&#8217;t understand well. Yes, we should improve our localisation to cover more languages (trust me, I&#8217;m working on it), but I believe that for some users, the icons will be much easier to recognise than the text itself, since it means little or nothing to some users who are not familiar with English or French in which they have to use the software.</p>
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		<title>By: GNOME Decides to Ditch Drawings (Linux Journal) &#124; Full-Linux.com</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-167161</link>
		<dc:creator>GNOME Decides to Ditch Drawings (Linux Journal) &#124; Full-Linux.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 06:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-167161</guid>
		<description>[...] Linux Journal covers a recent decision to simplify menus by leaving out the icons. &#8220;According to a blog post by Andreas Nilsson of the GNOME Art Team, a new policy on icon use has been adopted for future versions. In addition to adding larger icons for certain locales, the team has decided that the default value of the gtk-menu-images property in future GNOME releases will be changed to false, eliminating most of the icons used in menus. (This would include those used to represent &#8220;Open,&#8221; &#8220;Save,&#8221; and other similar dialogues.) The team feels it will produce a &#8220;visually more attractive default and that it will result in a cleaner and more efficient interface.&#8221;&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Linux Journal covers a recent decision to simplify menus by leaving out the icons. &#8220;According to a blog post by Andreas Nilsson of the GNOME Art Team, a new policy on icon use has been adopted for future versions. In addition to adding larger icons for certain locales, the team has decided that the default value of the gtk-menu-images property in future GNOME releases will be changed to false, eliminating most of the icons used in menus. (This would include those used to represent &#8220;Open,&#8221; &#8220;Save,&#8221; and other similar dialogues.) The team feels it will produce a &#8220;visually more attractive default and that it will result in a cleaner and more efficient interface.&#8221;&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Kitzing</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-167160</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Kitzing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 06:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-167160</guid>
		<description>Just turning off the icons in general is a very, very bad idea.

Ab &quot;hb&quot; said, it&#039;s more easy for teachers to point out to menu entries/buttons if they have symbols, same is true for tech support.

And what about the visually impaired? You could get along with the icons quite good... but only text? Or if you work in an environment where you have to work with desktops with different languages and you can&#039;t switch the language everytime? You could get along with the icons..

Just turning them off with the reason &quot;..reducing visual clutter&quot; is no good.

The whole discussion in the bugtracker of gnome seems weird to me.. it&#039;s like a rough, unshaped idea which has been converted into real code just by chance and now some people were just caught off guard.. &quot;...hey wait.. what? Where are my icons? There was a discussion about it? Indeed?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just turning off the icons in general is a very, very bad idea.</p>
<p>Ab &#8220;hb&#8221; said, it&#8217;s more easy for teachers to point out to menu entries/buttons if they have symbols, same is true for tech support.</p>
<p>And what about the visually impaired? You could get along with the icons quite good&#8230; but only text? Or if you work in an environment where you have to work with desktops with different languages and you can&#8217;t switch the language everytime? You could get along with the icons..</p>
<p>Just turning them off with the reason &#8220;..reducing visual clutter&#8221; is no good.</p>
<p>The whole discussion in the bugtracker of gnome seems weird to me.. it&#8217;s like a rough, unshaped idea which has been converted into real code just by chance and now some people were just caught off guard.. &#8220;&#8230;hey wait.. what? Where are my icons? There was a discussion about it? Indeed?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: A tale about website &#171; Vinicius Depizzol</title>
		<link>http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103&#038;cpage=1#comment-167148</link>
		<dc:creator>A tale about website &#171; Vinicius Depizzol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 02:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andreasn.se/blog/?p=103#comment-167148</guid>
		<description>[...] Besides the talks and discussions (and the tripping around the island!), most of the time the GNOME Art team spent was in the hacking rooms, working on icon drawings, user interfaces mockups, new ideas for streamlining the desktop and coding the new website layout. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Besides the talks and discussions (and the tripping around the island!), most of the time the GNOME Art team spent was in the hacking rooms, working on icon drawings, user interfaces mockups, new ideas for streamlining the desktop and coding the new website layout. [...]</p>
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